As for accuracy, I hear a lot of my friends talking about the accuracy of their 45s over a distance compared to my 9 mm, but no one to date has outshot me on the range, and almost all of my friends have switched to a 9 millimeter in the past few years. I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. I use +P ammo. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. None used a big cal but all targets were immediately incapacitated and all targets were within 1foot to 20 feet away. With all the discussion about hitting power of the big rounds, That is not the case with the new loads. Ricochet off. 0.38" Special P, 158 gr non-expanding bullet will, unless it strikes a bone, pass straight through a human body. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? I personally dont find much difference in recoil between a compact 9mm and compact .40 S&W; but I recognize and am sympathetic to other shooters who do. Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. The threshold for lung damage occurs at about 15 psi blast overpressure. For me, that is the Sig p226 9mm. pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. Repeat over and over, and keep doing so even after proficiency is achieved. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. I leave distinguishing the difference for law enforcement and military.In the moment of truth youre either going to hit properly or not. The door has been opened and shut for good on John M. Browning's classic 1911 design. Riley Bowman is the Director of Training at ConcealedCarry.com and the Host of the Concealed Carry Podcast. And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. During 15 years of LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. Its hard for Civilians to understand the firepower of the Military & Police, and what they can choose to bring to bear on their target, but we are responsible for each bullet fired, as Civilians! Maximum velocity is achieved only at barrel exit, then slows during flight through the viscous median known as our environment (air). I enjoyed reading all of this info but didnt once read the real reason the .45 was originally better at stopping than the .36 cal. The 9mm leaves the muzzle on average at 1100 feet per second, NOT 1500. The above referenced expert needs to stick with whatever he may really be an expert at. I never miss. Sadly, most government decisions like this are primarily based on cost effectiveness, not cartridge performance or effectiveness; thats the main reason I quit using military or LE decisions as a factor in my own carry decisions. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. The germans used 9mm forever and they know their guns and war making. Cpl. Shot placement?! In reaching this conclusion, the FBI appeared to give too little weight to the tissue-crushing ability of the larger projectiles (.40 S& W; .45 Auto). and I guess $$.. There are far too many different considerations and circumstances between self-defense necessities and military/LE necessities to list in a comment section; but theyre important distinctions. Anything else is a simple failure to prepare. Only two factors are within your control: the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. So In a effort to As where the .45, would dislodge the silhouette every time with a single shot. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. In 30 years I saw a shit-ton of things. There are a number of reasons for a failure to incapacitate, including a lack of awareness of the wound, intense personal fortitude, extreme emotions or physiological effects both natural (adrenaline) or chemically-induced (drugs such as PCP, heroin and cocaine). This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. I am sure the debate will go on till the last Cockroach dies . Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. Id use either! This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. The 9mm isnt a garbage round but feeling better with these 230 grain Winchester Rangers loaded on my side. Im 73 yoa. There are an almost equal number of shootings with 9mm that are ended with one or two shots as well. The idea that a bullet has the power to knock an adversary to the ground is a Hollywood myth. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. The louder the pop the more credence is added to his choice to continue in his efforts his engagement with you. Practice drawing the weapon, aiming it, and firing. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. for every day carry. 45 muzzle velocity is 500 feet per second and the 9mil is 1500 fps. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. Been involved in violent life or death confrontations for well over 40 years. About 5 yrs ago I read a document comparing the damage to a human body wearing, at the time, state of the art LE body armor. Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. Their over 800 FPS and some approaching 900 FPS with the hotter +P loads. It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and Sudden, immediate and even instant death. This remained the norm in the FBI until May 2014. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? Ask deerhunters. That much is true. hand guns to suit little feminine hands who shoots the Bad Guys with far less recoil and stopping power. I still prefer the .45. Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. The FBI just did the same thing. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. Is the debate on 9mm vs. .45 (or .40) settled then? Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. He died in our E.R. At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg. Please dont send me any hate mail. Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. What a joke! Handgun cartridges just dont do that. I have never shot a people. The 9mm is being adopted by military and law enforcement due to its higher capacity and lower price, as well as the reduced recoil which increases accuracy for many who find the .45 a bit much to handle. I know some are going to maybe chuckle but when I want a deep concealed handgun, I go with my PF9 Keltec. We were allowed to carry bone stock ( night sights ok. weapon purchased at our own expense ) Smith and Glock 21s ( It was the 2nd Gen Glock era. But only weighed 140 lbs then. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. The saga will never end. People have died from .22 LR in one shot. The quibble is over. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. .45 ACP FMJ doesnt normally make bad people flop to the ground instantaneously unless it hits the brain or spinewhich is probably what happened, given his skills. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. But nearly worthless in real world situations. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. Rookie year. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? If I remember my undergraduate physics, acceleration is defined as a change in velocity or a change in vector. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. Talk to someone that has been shot with a 9mm FMJ round and ask them what it feels like and contrast that to someone that has been shot with a 45 ACP FMJ round. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. To each their own. View our Terms of Service I carry a 10auto. Battlestar Galactica. We put our money behind the 9mm round fired by an extremely well-trained marksman carrying a Glock 19, Mannweiler told Marine Corps Times. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men. This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. Regards Jim, Sorry for the typos are you speak to text because I cant text like my child. I like to shoot three-four people a weektime permitting, of course. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. Fire Rate: 850 rounds/minute. Ret. there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. It appears now we have had to Dumb Down our .45cal. This is why officers typically carry as many shoulder weapons as possible in their cars. Several firearms in .22LR, .380ACP, 9mm, 7.62x25, 7.62 Nagant, .38/.357, 7.62x54R, .45ACP and .223. Reality. The only reason law enforcement and, military use a 9mm is budget. .45 acp is a good round and I prefer it used in close quarter environments becuse it is heavier and pack more energy. first handgun i ever fired was glock27 .40SW she was snappy at first but 16 years later and after shooting lots of .45 and 9, i am back to .40SW for HD purposes. Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? I have several 1911 pistols. I am a colt Gvt. I also do not understand why the M&P was disqualified, but it could be that other manufacturers guns have already been eliminated as well. Shot placement is the only thing that matters a perfect shot placement with a .22 gets the job done where a miss with a 50 cal just causes a little blood. Ultimately, your selection of a caliber should be based first on the penetration, and second on the unexpanded size of the round. The answer is Yes. Some bullets are so fast, they dont deliver the force of the bullet. Love reading your stuff. Possible off hand 200. My opinion, for whatever its worth, is that were all overthinking this. https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/, http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/, https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/, Victim Uses Awareness And a Gun to End Armed Attacker, S8E5: The Battle over Gun Registration & Assault Weapon Ban Rages On, Man Disarmed And Shot With Own Handgun in Parking Lot, Finally a Holster for the SIRT Pocket Pistol, Watch This Before You Shoot Your Pistol!! Should be Marine Commanders Have.. Each of the operators has his own preference. What type of bullet is being fired? Thank you Rich if you need 15 rounds to put down the assailant youre in trouble already, I have not near the experience of some of the veterans in the service. My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. The best gun is the one that is best in your hands not best someone elses hands. In the woods my .45 r1 with cast is what I carry. 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. 9mm. That the .45ACP slows down so much that its penetration is less effective than a 9mm? According to a sweeping 2016 survey, there were, at that time, more guns in the hands of Americans than there are cars on the road. WebSearch: 45 Acp Damage Human Body. I have yet to see this. Riley, love your artical. But we generally would refer to them as cartridges or rounds as a bullet is just the projectile portion encased in a cartridge and loaded into the firearm. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. He watched MARSOC during a multi-national special forces competition, MARSOC couldnt compete with the low capacity 1911. We argued more capacity modern rounds ect ect. I also own both my fathers series 70 .45 (very accurate, low recoil due to mass, gunsmith tuned trigger that feels like butter, and extra fat grips) And a Kahr K40 (small, easy to conceal, but has a HORRENDOUS trigger pull and snappy recoil). But in the Kaos of combat (especially at dark:30) your intended target isnt usually going to present itself and just stand there for your perfect shot placement. Ammunition can really change performance. F=MA is F=MA. He is the current USPSA Carry Optics Colorado State Champion and most recently won 3rd place in Master Class at the 2022 USPSA Carry Optics National Championship. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. I like it better than the small pistols and can conceal the 1911 easily. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! FN DUH! And let us not forget the adrenaline factor. Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO. These are the only two factors you can expect to remain constant in any situation. I prefer 45 revolvers. 15 round mag of 9mm FMJ unless you hit the heart better plan on using 3 to 5 rounds to stop the person. In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. We were trained with a .45, to protect the patient. The last time such a broad survey of gun ownership in America was done, long arms ruled the day and Americans were largely interested in weapons for hunting and other sporting uses. Take it this way, someone shoots at you, you at them. With practice almost anything is possible. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. Concurr on 45 and m14 . To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the likelihood of incapacitation increases. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. Remember we started this country with every make and model of firearm known to man.Give our men our warriors the best.Let them choose the caliber they know better than anyone. All the scientific debates the fact is both are great but its interesting to me as a marine my understanding that the 45 was developed for the jungle warfare against drugged up Muslim extremist in the Philippines inthat timeframe and then fast forward to Falluja drugged up Muslims extremist And everybody Marines wanted 45 again In real situations Where it matters most I just wrote my friend who is in the thick of - and Falluja lost an arm multiple casualties and his answer was quick and simple 45. The only way to ensure immediate incapacitation is to shoot the adversary in the brain or upper spinal cord (i.e., central nervous system). There is little or no noticeable difference in wound tracks between 9mm Luger, .40 S&W and .45 Auto premium line rounds. One had a 9mm one had a .45who is gonna get up quicker to finish the job. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. We report stories that would go untold. I like the P227 better. There are other similar handgun calibers, such as the .44 Special and the .45 Colt, and of course, the .357 SIG and 10mm Auto are Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. .223 Rem in 5.56 NATO is OK. Damage: 22 per pellet. I have formed the opinion that the 9mm is adequate, the 40 S&W is better and the 45 is best. It has been reported by Heritage about how there are a number of personal protection gun uses that make the news in any given month, but are given a tiny fraction of the attention that mass shooters and other violent gun criminals receive. I was in the military for 15 years Ive been through several handgun changes. Reality. My understanding in past test 9mms dont do well in front car windshield stops. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. .380 9mm .40 10mm or .45 one well placed shot and dead nothing really better about each round besides power and penetration they all kill in skilled hands and do there job in certain situations there is no better round than the one you train with period! So that is where the saying and belief came from. I am not sure why Ruger did not enter a weapon into the competition (like the new American pistol), but it could be that they looked at the RFP and made a determination that for some reason their pistols didnt fit the bill, or perhaps they decided it wasnt worth it. You hit it dead on its not the cal thats most important its what you can do with it. Sign up now to get our latest stories and eye-opening briefings. I have several. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. If you use .22 mag, muzzle flash is pronounced and may have some fear factor with its use. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? The .22, meanwhile. Bowman, The worse thing in a gunfight is running out of ammo, lol If you shoot well it shouldnt make a difference, especially with todays ammo types. The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. Glock 19 only playing catch up with those guns. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. We all, sitting safe and pretty, can discuss this and that but we are NOT in their shoes. For a bullet to be effective for law enforcement, it must be able to penetrate the body between 12 and 18 inches to reach large vital organs to cause rapid blood loss.
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